New garden beds - Ask Extension
I hired a landscape architect to help me plan my landscaping for a new build; beds were completed last October.
Question 1: The flower beds are f...
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New garden beds #867143
Asked May 05, 2024, 7:59 PM EDT
I hired a landscape architect to help me plan my landscaping for a new build; beds were completed last October.
Question 1: The flower beds are filled with thistle. Is it normal for new soil to have tons of weed seeds or should I complain?
Question 2: When I remove the thistle I am trying to get all the roots but I can here the weed "snap" so I don't think I always get the whole weed. How bad is that? Someone told me if you don't get the whole root you'll get 2 where you left the root. Old wives tale??
Lorain County Ohio
Expert Response
Hi Barbara,
Thank you for your gardening question. Unfortunately new soil can contain weed seeds and the mixing, laying etc can bring seeds to the surface that may have been laying dormant. Seeds can live for years in the soil.
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/the_shocking_truth_about_topsoil
Regarding the thistle, this can be quite a nuisance and you will need to be diligent on removing it. It can be done.
It has an extensive root system, best to hand remove and you can systemically treat the new shoots. If you do choose to use a chemical make sure to read and follow the label, making sure right product for the job and following any/all precautions. You can also choose to remove organically by hand pulling, digging, making sure no more seeds are dispersed and you could smother it. I personally have found this to be effective.
If you are hand pulling/digging and you hear a snap you are leaving part of the root in the ground and a new shoot will come from that point. For this reason tilling is not recommended as you may be scattering multiple roots.
I've included some articles you may find helpful.
https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/home-garden/how-to/2023/06/29/ask-the-expert-how-to-control-thistle-in-your-flower-beds/<personal data hidden>/#
https://blog-fruit-vegetable-ipm.extension.umn.edu/2018/10/battling-thistles-organically-at.html
https://ohiograpeweb.cfaes.ohio-state.edu/ipm/weeds/canada-thistle
Thank you for your gardening question. Unfortunately new soil can contain weed seeds and the mixing, laying etc can bring seeds to the surface that may have been laying dormant. Seeds can live for years in the soil.
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/the_shocking_truth_about_topsoil
Regarding the thistle, this can be quite a nuisance and you will need to be diligent on removing it. It can be done.
It has an extensive root system, best to hand remove and you can systemically treat the new shoots. If you do choose to use a chemical make sure to read and follow the label, making sure right product for the job and following any/all precautions. You can also choose to remove organically by hand pulling, digging, making sure no more seeds are dispersed and you could smother it. I personally have found this to be effective.
If you are hand pulling/digging and you hear a snap you are leaving part of the root in the ground and a new shoot will come from that point. For this reason tilling is not recommended as you may be scattering multiple roots.
I've included some articles you may find helpful.
https://www.dispatch.com/story/lifestyle/home-garden/how-to/2023/06/29/ask-the-expert-how-to-control-thistle-in-your-flower-beds/<personal data hidden>/#
https://blog-fruit-vegetable-ipm.extension.umn.edu/2018/10/battling-thistles-organically-at.html
https://ohiograpeweb.cfaes.ohio-state.edu/ipm/weeds/canada-thistle
Wow! What an amazing response - prompt and thorough.
I do not want to use herbicides unless absolutely necessary and would only use an organic one and the first article says organic herbicides are not very effective. You mentioned smothering it. Would that mean covering each of the weeds with something, perhaps a red solo cup? How long do you think it would take for a weed to die? I pulled every thistle weed I could find a week and a half ago, went out of town and yesterday I had to pull a lot of them. I have almost a whole 5 gallon bucket of thistle!
I would like to ask another question. I have a very windy spot at the corner of my house. We planted a weeping spruce and it died. I'm thinking it was the wind. Do you know of an evergreen that will not get wider than about 6' (so probably a dwarf) that can take a lot of wind? I also considered a dwarf crabapple but would prefer an evergreen. Native would be icing on the cake.
Thanks so much for your expertise. I am considering becoming a Master Gardener.
Barb
Hi Barb,
When smothering it, it would mean using something like black plastic for a longer period of time- like a season. So no not red solo cup unfortunately. I was able to use thick cardboard sheets and cover with mulch. You do have to watch out for any hiding shoots under shrubbery etc that could pop up without notice and give life to the roots. I'm including another management article that may help as well.
https://blog-fruit-vegetable-ipm.extension.umn.edu/2020/03/make-management-plan-now-for-perennial.html
Just make sure as you are managing you do not allow the plants to go to seed and try to weed on a 21 day cycle.
The Master Gardener program is a wonderful program to be a part of. Contact your local county extension office for their next round of classes.
Regarding a native tree or shrub what is the planting area like? Will this be in full sun? shade? Is is a wet area?
When smothering it, it would mean using something like black plastic for a longer period of time- like a season. So no not red solo cup unfortunately. I was able to use thick cardboard sheets and cover with mulch. You do have to watch out for any hiding shoots under shrubbery etc that could pop up without notice and give life to the roots. I'm including another management article that may help as well.
https://blog-fruit-vegetable-ipm.extension.umn.edu/2020/03/make-management-plan-now-for-perennial.html
Just make sure as you are managing you do not allow the plants to go to seed and try to weed on a 21 day cycle.
The Master Gardener program is a wonderful program to be a part of. Contact your local county extension office for their next round of classes.
Regarding a native tree or shrub what is the planting area like? Will this be in full sun? shade? Is is a wet area?
Thanks again for your speedy response. That last article is scary! Since thistle is in my flower beds I can't really do the cardboard/tarp method. I am pretty persistent with weeding - I go in the garden just about every day and do some work. I also read about a homemade vinegar pesticide (one part vinegar, one equal part water, and a drop of dish soap) but the last article you sent mentioned that doesn't work real well.
Thistle is also in my yard but I do not have grass, I have a seed mix - fescue, clover, creeping thyme, Kentucky blue grass so we will not be mowing it very often. I guess I'll be trying to pull it there too.
Regarding the tree - sorry I didn't provide more detail. It is in a full sun area, soil is fairly heavy/clay and very windy. Not a particularly wet spot.
Thanks again,
Barb
Hi Barbara
Sorry I missed your response back. Here is an article on native conifers in Ohio.
https://ohioplants.org/conifers/
Instead of a tree have you considered adding a native viburnum. There are some semi evergreen varieties but the black haw viburnum is a good crabapple substitute, supports wildlife and great fall color.
From Brooklyn Botanic Garden
The black-haw viburnum, Viburnum prunifolium, has the stature of a small tree and is found in the woods from Connecticut to Florida and west to Michigan and Texas. Hardy from Zones 3 to 9, it is a tough plant and a good crabapple substitute for city gardens or naturalized landscapes. I've seen it used very successfully in public plantings because it tolerates dry situations and different soil types, and will grow in sun or shade. However, it is not salt tolerant. The May-blooming flowers are white with numerous yellow stamens. The cherrylike leaves have reddish stems, and the fall foliage color is often a glistening purple-red. These features, along with a distinctive pebbled bark, make the black-haw viburnum easy to identify in the wild. The plant's black fruits are eaten by many kinds of wildlife and can be eaten out of hand or used for making jelly, though the birds usually get them first.
https://www.finegardening.com/article/the-best-native-viburnums-for-the-northern-plains
Sorry I missed your response back. Here is an article on native conifers in Ohio.
https://ohioplants.org/conifers/
Instead of a tree have you considered adding a native viburnum. There are some semi evergreen varieties but the black haw viburnum is a good crabapple substitute, supports wildlife and great fall color.
From Brooklyn Botanic Garden
The black-haw viburnum, Viburnum prunifolium, has the stature of a small tree and is found in the woods from Connecticut to Florida and west to Michigan and Texas. Hardy from Zones 3 to 9, it is a tough plant and a good crabapple substitute for city gardens or naturalized landscapes. I've seen it used very successfully in public plantings because it tolerates dry situations and different soil types, and will grow in sun or shade. However, it is not salt tolerant. The May-blooming flowers are white with numerous yellow stamens. The cherrylike leaves have reddish stems, and the fall foliage color is often a glistening purple-red. These features, along with a distinctive pebbled bark, make the black-haw viburnum easy to identify in the wild. The plant's black fruits are eaten by many kinds of wildlife and can be eaten out of hand or used for making jelly, though the birds usually get them first.
https://www.finegardening.com/article/the-best-native-viburnums-for-the-northern-plains
